Gerard Debreu

The speakers will welcome questions.

Douglas Samuelson, American Statistical Association, Committee on Scientific Freedom and Human Rights

As you know, in many cases, such as detainment of a scientist, it is possible for scientific societies in the West to argue forcefully in that scientist's behalf with the government responsible for the action.

To raise similar arguments for the end of torture or for changing the medical ethics practiced within a government is much more difficult. Do any of you have any thoughts, any insights, about what means Western scientific societies may use to persuade governments to restrict the use of torture?

Juan Luís González

I think my government is absolutely resistant to any kind of pressure that can be made by scientific associations. For the Chilean government, the only pressure that can be made is political pressure. So, that is the way to do things.

Helen Ranney

I would like to ask Dr. González if other groups are protesting the abuse of human rights by the current government there outside of the medical group that has done such an admirable job in Chile.

Juan Luís González

Not only the Chilean medical association has been protesting against abuses and defending human rights. Also the Catholic church and other churches have been working very hard on that, along with other professional associations, such as the lawyers, the engineers, and many others.

Helen Ranney

Is there any second political party that is being allowed to emerge at all?

Juan Luís González

In my country, political parties are forbidden.

Joel Lebowitz, Rutgers University

I was just going to ask members, especially those from the Institute of Medicine, to what extent medical ethics, particularly concerning torture, is now being taught in all medical schools. How much can such education be extended in the hope that it will have some effect, in general?

Albert Solnit

I think that the concept of informed consent is one that fails to be implemented perfectly. It is an effort on the part of organizations conducting experimental treatments or treatments of any kind to make sure that obtaining consent is legitimately delegated to an appropriate person and is provided for painful or experimental treatments.

I believe we have entered into an era when we can begin to approximate a healthy answer to that question.

Virginia M. Bouvier, Washington Office on Latin America

I would like to ask Dr. González if he could comment on the recent ruling by the Chilean government regarding the use of secret detention centers, what he thinks that will mean for the pattern of torture in Chile, and if the Chilean medical association has taken a stand on that.

Juan Luís González

You will have to excuse me, but I do not understand what you say, Ginny.

Virginia M. Bouvier

There was a recent ruling by the Chilean government banning the use of secret detention centers, I understand. I wonder if you had heard that and what you think that will mean for Chile.

Juan Luís González

Yes, I have heard of that, and I think they are only words and nothing more.

Participant

I would like to direct my comment to Dr. Haynes. My hope is that the Institute of Medicine will make its activities public, so that a broader range of people than those in this room and those who read occasional documents about the abuse of medicine in torture will become aware of this situation.

I think that it is necessary, in the end, that a political process brings this practice of torture to an end in any country around the world, but if this remains private information of Chilean or American medical associations or other associations, then I think it will fall far short. I hope that that can be done.

M. Alfred Haynes

I am reasonably certain that this will be done. As I said earlier, what the institute has been trying to clarify is exactly what its role can be. The problems are so enormous worldwide and they appear, in some cases, to be increasing. The institute is reluctant to take on more than it can handle competently, but I can assure you that there is a very serious attempt on the part of the institute to do all it can and that it will take appropriate steps to encourage others who come within its domain to do their part.